8.15.2009

"Can I Take Your Son to Church?"

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I was standing outside this morning and my son was playing with his transformer toys in the yard. As I stood there, dazed still from having just woken up, one of my neighbors walked up to me, all smiles and shiny cheeks. I said good morning in my polite but reserved way and she said good morning back but it was obvious she had meandered over to me with a purpose and I waited patently for that purpose to be revealed. The conversation we had was a bit shocking, but also a bit satisfying.
Neighbor Lady: How's it going?

Me: Oh, OK. I work nights so I'm just getting myself up now.

NL: Well it's nice that your son lets you sleep in.

M: Yeah, he's a good boy, I am lucky.

NL: I wanted to ask you about him, we're going to this thing tomorrow and I wanted to know if he could come?

M: Oh yeah, what kind of thing? What time? He's going to hang out with his grandmother sometime tomorrow so it might not work out.

NL: It's in the morning.
This is when I began to get uncomfortable. Tomorrow is Sunday. Sunday morning. She wants to take my son to a 'thing' on Sunday morning. I must have paused for a little too long or was wearing my concern plainly on my face because my neighbor continued -
NL: It's a church thing, but the kids don't really do a lot of the church stuff they just play. I thought he might like it.

M: Well what kind of church thing is it?

NL: Well, it's church. We go to a really nice church down the street and I have heard you and your boyfriend talking about being atheists, but I figure your son might still want to see what it's all about.

M: My 6 year old son?

NL: Well, yeah.

M: You're asking to take my 6 year old kid to a church, knowing that I'm an atheist?

NL: Well, I know you rejected god, but that doesn't mean your boy has to grow up without knowing all his options, right? I'm not trying to offend you...
It was at this point that I took a long pause. I told the neighbor, a very nice lady who I honestly feel wasn't trying to be insulting and who has genuine concerns regarding god, judgment, and hell, that I needed a minute to think about things. She seemed to misinterpret my pause as if I were considering for even a moment allowing my son to go with her but that was fine as she patiently waited while I considered my response.
M: You have the little blond girl, right? The nice girl my son plays with?

NL: Yeah, she's my daughter and she LOVES the church we go to.

M: I want you to consider something and I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to prove a point. Were I to come up to you and ask you if I could take your daughter with me and my son to an activity where all of the people there besides your daughter would be atheists 'just to give her another perspective', would you be comfortable with that?

NL: (immediately blurts out) Well of course not!

M: Well then you completely understand why I would rather not have my son go to church with you tomorrow. And for the record, I would never suggest that myself - not for my son or your daughter. Our kids are 6 - I feel like they need to figure out for themselves what they believe and right now, they're still taking in all the possible explanations.

NL: Well, if you want your son to make up his own mind, why would you be opposed to him coming to church with us and checking it out?

M: For one, I think he's too young. More important than that, he's not the one who asked me if he could go to church, you are. He's not yet interested in your faith and I'm not going to push the exposure on him. When he's ready, he'll look into it and if you guys are still living next to us, I'll let him know then that you'll be happy to take him to church with you.
This was the end of the conversation. I don't know if the interaction offended the woman or not, but it shouldn't have. I remember being a kid and being present during similar conversations between my parents and friends and neighbors of theirs. When I was in 5th grade my parents decided I was old enough to go to church with people if I wanted to and I remember going to a Carman concert with some neighbors of mine and feeling like I had stepped into the twilight zone.

The religious practice of 'get 'em while they're young' seems unsavory to me because it takes the minds of people just as willing to accept the existence of Santa Clause or Optimus Prime on faith as anything else, and produces for them a creator god who they are to take on faith is real as well. Then, they take away Santa and Optimus as fanciful, childish things, yet they maintain that god is the real deal? How can you willingly do that to a kid and not consider than you might be messing them up?

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Aspentroll's avatar

Aspentroll · 815 weeks ago

I would have told her that you like to brainwash your kids at home, just like home schooling.
You want your kids to get both sides of the picture, not just the xtian side.

I was never pushed into religion and feel I'm better off for it. I have read the horror stories of those who have deconverted from Xtianity and they are not pretty. Most people are scarred for life and have difficulty coping after leaving the "bubble of xtianity".
4 replies · active 778 weeks ago
KristenMP's avatar

KristenMP · 815 weeks ago

Same here with Aspentroll. Fortunate for me, I wasn't forced to go to Church. Over time, it became my decision to go to Church when I felt like it. Even though I was a kid at the time and believed in God, it never seemed that important to go worship in a place full of people I don't know and hear sermons that didn't make sense to me at the time. Plus, trying to read the Children's Bible growing up brought me to Atheism much more quickly.

But I feel a tad bit bad for you. That was not the neighbor's way to go of almost trying to force your child to go to Church. If she were to have done the same with me, I would have told her to take a hike. But that's me being nice, because otherwise I would have said "Shove it." xD lol
Very nice and measured. I like the response, it was perfectly chosen to show how you felt about such a question. Of course, "get 'em young" is part of the stated way most churches work.
Typical, but disturbing, behaviour at the end of the conversation - having had the objection to the apparently innocent question "don't you want your child to know all the options" illustrated by personal analogy and also admitting hypocrisy in that she wouldn't suffer her own child to experience the same thing with regard to the atheist perspective, she instantaneously seems to forget the answer in its entirety and asks exactly the same question again.

Personally, I would have begun my response with "Why do you feel the need to be deceptive? Why didn't you mention church until I pressed you for details, and then only reluctantly?"
You handled it much more politely than I would have been able to!
I would have been perfectly polite up until she said, "well, of course not," at which point I would have pointd out to her that the English language has a word to describe her position: hypocrite.
1 reply · active 815 weeks ago
Would your response have been different if your child asked about attending church with the friend? This happened to my wife and me. We said, "Sure, feel free to go to church with your friend." The funny part is that the friend told my daughter "Eww. Uou don't want to go to church with me. It's boring!"

My daughter is 7, and assuming I trust my neighbor not to physically hurt my child I don't think I would have a problem with it. E have instilled her with 7 Years of unconditional love and independent/critical thinking that I don't think a couple hours of strangers talking about God would lead to anything more than an interesting discussion when she got home. Not sure I would feel the same way about my five year old but I think even she would be more curious than brainwashed by two hours in a church setting.

I do think your response was way off base. I would have contrasted my way of thinking with her "we would never let our kids hang with Atheists" rather than use it to confirm your own decision. I would hope that as my kids grow older they can be exposed to religious gatherings and then come home to discuss them. I would be horrified to think that I would need to not expose my kids to a belief simply because I disagree with it.
13 replies · active 815 weeks ago
Thank you for sharing your story. You handled that amazingly well, and I can't imagine a better way of diffusing the situation. I always do find it interesting that the religious have no problem suggesting my children attend religious events with them, but are appalled at the opposite possibility. My family isn't "out" as atheists in the neighborhood, and we have repeatedly turned down invitations to attend various religious events. Luckily, after the 2nd year, they all got the idea we were always going to say "no".

BTW, I highly recommend "Camp Quest" for your child when he is older. My kids have attended three Camp Quests over the past four years, and they have loved every one of their three weeks, total, there. We have driven over 14 hours to get them there, and it was worth every mile, just in the confidence instilled in our children and the awareness they gained, knowing they were not alone being raised by atheists. Camp Quest is a great way for kids to spend a week with their peers.

You can read a great overview of Camp Quest Smoky Mountains at:

http://www.rationalists.org/news.php?id=000000044...

Again, thanks for taking the time to share your story.
Richard Wade's avatar

Richard Wade · 815 weeks ago

Excellent response. Pointing out the neighbor's double standard is the most devastating argument against a hypocrite. She wants to let your son "know all the options," but she deprives her own daughter of the same thing, and wouldn't even consider it.

Also, watch out for cagey statements like "NL: It's a church thing, but the kids don't really do a lot of the church stuff they just play. I thought he might like it."

"The kids don't really do a lot of the church stuff" leaves plenty of room for the kids doing some of the church stuff. Hypocrites talk like lawyers, equivocating with little details in their statements. Their words are technically not lies, but their intention is to deceive.

Lying for Jesus is in the long run a self-defeating strategy.
1 reply · active 815 weeks ago
Sounds to me like you did an admirably deft job here. I am always so impressed by how sensitively the allegedly "militant" activist atheists around the web approach this issue of exposing kids to religion. So much more thought and care is at work than in the religious obsession with indoctrinating kids, the emphasis is rather entirely on cultivating intellectual virtues instead---as it should be.
One piece of missing info here is exactly what branch of Christian church this was. If this parent is concerned about whether your child finds god, then it's reasonable for you to assume that the church's message may be evangelical, and that its tactics may be coercive. But not all christian churches are like this. One church I know of led its youth groups on field trips to other denominations' services. And to Synagogues. And to Mosques. And to Buddhist & Hindu ceremonies. And to hear atheist speakers. I believe they were genuinely interested in showing the kids & teens all sorts of options, without presenting their own brand as right.

It's just possible (though unlikely) that your neighbour is very enthusiastic about her liberal church. Were I in your shoes I might be more inclined to do some brief research into the particular church your neighbour goes to - much in the way you might want to check up on a movie your neighbour is taking the kids to see.
You're such a liar. The child in the image at the beginning of the article is clearly doing the sign of the Flying Spaghetti Monster ...

/me pauses to draw squiggles across his chest with his hand, whilst whispering 'May his pasta protect you'.

You just didn't want your neighbour to discover that you'd already indoctrinated your child with the holy scripture of the divine meatballs.
1 reply · active 815 weeks ago
I suppose I am not mentally agile enough to have crafted such a reply extemporaneously.
My clearly atheist teenage kids are older, and I have had no problem with them going to church with friends and family. My daughter even volunteers at a vacation bible school these past few summers. Usually she comes back humming "dum dum dum dum dum" ala south park.
I'd rather they were more literate about the worlds religions, as make believe activities go it is no worse than watching fictional stories on TV.
Reginald Selkirk's avatar

Reginald Selkirk · 815 weeks ago

"Can I Take Your Son to Church?"

What a preposterous question. It should "May I take your son to church?"
1 reply · active 783 weeks ago
My probable response:

"Well, I know you rejected god, but that doesn’t mean your boy has to grow up without knowing all his options, right? I’m not trying to offend you…"

"Amazing how you can do such a great job without even trying."
that's a wonderfully even-handed and thoughtful response! i found it interesting that your neighbor would not let you take her child with you but still wanted to take your child with her.
I would have posited it as a deal: "Sure, you can take my son if you let me take your daughter to an Atheist meetup." (obviously not true, but simply to point out her double standard in a more obvious way)
That was a wonderful response. I'd think up something like that an hour after I brought my kid indoors feeling quite uncomfortable that someone was so presumptuous. But my too-late response would have included verbiage about how I'm raising my kids with a keen awareness of your religious beliefs, along with many other beliefs systems from other cultures and time periods.
Well done. Much better then I would have handled it.
I also think your answer was perfect and i couldn't think of something better.
The "Double Standard" argument does not work against religious people because they think their belief actually makes sense while yours doesn't. So to them its far more reasonable to expose other people to Christianity rather than Atheism.
1 reply · active 778 weeks ago
The "rejected god" framing, woulda bugged me... I probably would have responded "Well I don't reject gods, I just don't believe they exist, thus there'd be no real good reason for my kid to go to church...no offense of course, it'd just be a waste of time." maybe adding "If you want you can baptize the lil sucker just in case (lol), but after that I'm gonna let him make his own decisions for himself when he's older an his brain is more fully matured."
Hypersapien's avatar

Hypersapien · 815 weeks ago

Does she even understand how it's EXACTLY the same thing?
Or COURSE she doesn't understand. In her mind, Christianity is the One True Religion, while atheism is a lie that came straight from the Devil's mouth. She probably thinks we dress in black, hooded robes and eat babies.
1 reply · active 815 weeks ago
After getting the neighbour to concede that she would not have allowed her child to be taken to an atheist gathering, I would have permitted her to take my 6 year old child to church. Do you really think shielding your children from religion irrationality is the way to go? Teach them to think - not what to think. We took our 8 year old daughter to an RC wedding mass this summer & she was even invited by the bride to deliver the wine to the priest for communion. I am convinced that the whole experience has left her far more skeptical of Christianity than any lecture I could have given her.
1 reply · active 815 weeks ago

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